Very interesting! Adding your thoughts, I think Japanese generally don't try to impose their mother tongue to foreigners, unlike, say, Americans. What do you think?

Right... I think that there are two issues at work there...

Firstly, Japanese know that their language is not a common choice for an international language. Japan is a huge economic power, but no other country speaks Japanese natively, so it's low on the list for world-wide understanding. So they don't expect others to know it. This is a great thing, and everyone should behave this way, even if they're English speakers -- it's only polite... :)

Secondly, Japanese is difficult to learn for those who speak most western languages... But here, Japanese people have a bit of a misconception, I believe. They seem to think that no foreigner should be able to speak Japanese, because it's "too hard," or because it requires something uniquely "Japanese" to speak...

I remember a few years ago, there was a news show in Japan where someone was interviewing a guy in India. I don't remember the subject, but this Indian guy spoke _perfect_ Japanese. The announcer, a famous anchor in Japan, said this afterwards: "Gaijin no nihongo wa katakoto no hou ga iin da na," or some such... (Foreigners should speak Japanese with mistakes/like a child)...

Maybe you remember this incident... It really irked many foreigners living in Japan, that this guy actually couldn't handle the idea of gaijin speaking good Japanese... I think this has always been an issue in Japan, but maybe it's getting a little better now, with all the gaijin in Tokyo that speak great Japanese nowadays... :) At least I hope so... ;)

Exactly. Those Japanese attitudes show both modesty and arrogance. I didn't know about the incident, but the silly announcer well represents the arrogant side.

It's really good to have great foreign Japanese speakers in Japan. :) Things are changing.

Also, I hope the day will come when Japanese are no longer regarded as poor English speakers. ;)

mmm. :)

I think Japanese people's English will continue to get better. Finally, they have some foreigners teaching in the schools, and more kids are going abroad in Junior High and High School to study English too. :)

Japan is a hard country to globalize -- there's still a long road ahead....

When I go out in Tokyo with Julia (my wife/Malaysian) and we have to ask for directions or for any information at all, they will always look at her and never at me, even though she is only just starting Japanese. I actually can speak out and they _still_ won't look at me. This happens _all_ the time. She can just nod and get further in Japanese than I can sometimes....

We all have adaptive (like the GMAT) hearing systems and the Japanese sometimes take a few minutes to listen to me sometimes, but I understand.....

hehe... ;)

Yuki also befuddled quite a few people in China when she tried to explain that she wasn't Chinese... She couldn't convince them she was American, so she just told them she was Japanese after that... ;)

us japanese are very proud of our culture and people and gaijin shouldn't be speaking our beautiful language. you're bastardizing it!

そんな考え方だと、鎖国時代に戻りたいと思われてしまうぞ。

日本語はどんなに美しいとしても、ある人種が話していいとか、話しちゃダメとか、そういうのは人種偏見に過ぎない。

英語が国際共通言語になっているのはこういう問題がないからではないか。　もしかしたら日本人も「日本人種」という概念を超える事が出来れば真の民主主義国家になれるのではないか。

There's an interesting poll on the subject on the Japantoday site.

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=popvox&id=351

and

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=popvox&id=352

Hello. That comment by Kataro I found it very rude of him to say that. but of course thats my own openion. i dont know to many japanese people but i find the language quite butiful no matter what any one says.

I am going to college in the fall. I have wanted to study Japanese for years and have never been able to, until now! I think that Kotaro's comment was very ignorant and i don't think that he should be representing any country with those beliefs. I will learn Japanese no matter what anyone thinks. I feel that is it a beautiful language and I plan to become fluent.

Trevor what does your message mean?
I plan to minor in japanese and study abroad my senior year. Does anyone know how long it will take to become fluent in japanese, and will four years be enough?
Any suggestions?

This is a basic translation of what I said above in Japanese...

"Thinking like that, it's as if you want to return to the days when Japan shut out all contact with the outside world..."

"However beautiful you think Japanese is, to say that it's ok for some races to speak it and not for others is nothing more than racial discrimination..."

"Isn't it because English doesn't have problems like this that it's become the international language of choice? If Japanese could also overcome the concept of the "Japanese Race", they could become more of a true democracy, don't you think?"

As for learning Japanese, there are a number of different aspects to consider... It doesn't take that long to learn how to speak well if you have access to friends and others who speak it, or if you are in Japan. You could learn to speak pretty well in 3 years, living in Japan, or maybe even less. In the US it would take longer, and you'd have to make a real effort to spend time talking to people in Japanese... :)

As for reading and writing, I think it takes at least 10 years to learn enough to read newspapers, maybe 15 for books such as novels... It's just a lot to learn. But it's constantly rewarding, all along the way. It's definitely worth it. :) You can read simple things such as signs and menus much sooner though... :)

Trevor how long did it take 'you' to become fluent? Does Manga actually help with reading ( in the beginning stages)? Anyway, it sucks that I have to wait until my senior year to go to Japan. Are there any places that you recommend to see in Japan?

Since I moved there when I was 10, and had a lot of Japanese friends while I was there, within 3 years I was pretty fluent (albeit at about elementary school level). Since then I've had to continue to study kanji and vocab and read a lot to improve to my current level, where it's easy to read newspapers and magazines, and I can read books but it takes more time...

Manga do help a lot, I think. They're a good way to learn about colloquial Japanese, and they can hold your interest until you are able to read more difficult material without furigana... If you like manga, read them as much as you can, same with anime, because the more exposure you have the more you'll learn... :)

There are a lot of places to see in Japan, most of which are in the guidebooks. If you go to Tokyo though, you have to go to the main spots: Shibuya, Akihabara, Harajuku/Omotesando... I love walking around the back streets in Shibuya and Harajuku and finding little french restaurants and T-shirt shops and basement jazz lounges... ;) There's sooo much to see and do there, it's a trip.

i'm 14, and i speak a little bit of japanese, takes some time to brush up because it's hard to find a book on colloquial jap here in malaysia where i live, so i have to try and pick up phrases from anime shows and etc. finally i found one book but i brought it to school without actually having read it yet (i meant to read it in school) and my teacher confiscated it because she read it and there were some perverse bits and foul words at the end.
so i tried to explain to her that i had absolutely no idea and that there was nothing wrong with learning foul words in japanese, after all, the book was for colloquial speaking, wasn't it? but she refused so here i am, stuck, and i need something or someone to help me with japanese because i'm preparing to leave to japan next year for a student exchange trip.

doen en -- you should be able to order a couple of books from amazon.com...

I do wish people were less strict about these things when it comes to learning other languages... The most important thing, by far, is having fun with the language and being able to use it with people you know...

Japanese? ah.....as I know is a kind of beasts living in the god damn Japanese island..if you get to japan. you will find that most Japanese are likely to prentend to be arrogant so as to get more attention from foreigners....the typical is that they like calling chinese "zhina" or call other westerners "gaijin"..and proud to tell everyone they are so called "yamato" race which is should be
listed in the category of superior race..that's so funny..because I cannot understand why they like to be so ignorant to the world..everything is continuelling changing in the world.and none of them will last forever...those who called Yamato race is the best race in this world really make me
think whether they are morons or other stupid ass
live in the ghetto in the certain corner on the earth
because..in we chinese eyes..they will never be a
superior race...their rat ugly face has completely shown that they are inferior and should not be cared by anyone ...they crucial behavior has shown
that they didn't evolve completely from apes...and their anime make me sick!!! suck my ass...Japanese..don't blame me..you know you deserve it...as a qualified thief who like steal the culture of other country...you should be hornorable
to be we chinese slave..or son........so if you come to my country...don't feel upset when to be executed by us...and after all...I wanna say...fuck off!!!!!!! Japanese trash....suck my ass!!!!!!!!!!!1

Wow.

Fucking sangokujin. The Yamato people will always be far more superior than the Chinese. While the Chinese did nothing but bicker among themselves, our great ancestors have modernized and turn the tiny islands of Japan into a powerful country. We should have directed all our forces into exterminating your kind during the great war. We defeated you in the Sino-Japanese War and slaughtered you during the Second World War. If it weren't for the Americans, China would've been part of the great Imperial Japanese Dynasty. Look how pitiful your Emperor was. Becoming a puppet to the Great Emperor Hirohito.

I do not like the ideas of foreigners plaguing Japan. I read the news today and Chinese foreigners living in our country has increased their crime rate 40%. Nothing but trouble, these Chinese. I hate it when I run into foreingers speaking Japanese or trying to speak Japanese. Especially those who come only for the anime. Just because they watch so much anime, they think they know everything about Japan. Che! What an insult.

I dunno why you're saying we're ugly, coz look at your people. What a joke. With your ugly language and such. Always sounding angry. Zo long ling ling shau la lu pu long ka ka li lu zhong. WTF is that. Hahaha. YAMATO TAMASHII! BANZAI!

BTW White people are cool, but only if they are visiting. Korean people are cool too because they're like us. 65% of Japanese blood is Korean because Japanese descended from Korea then we kicked their ass later. Even his Imperial Highness Akihito claims the Yamato Dynasty is part Korean. Taiwanese are ok. They worship us too much.

Shigeru and the Chinese person should take a pill and chill out. It's the 21st century for God's sake. Wake up and join the rest of the civilized world.

you know, it's funny that nobody commented about the hypocrisy behind kotaro's comment "us japanese are very proud of our culture..." Anybody who's not sensually impaired who has visited Japan eventually realizes that 50% or more of current Japanese "culture" (albeit that which is mostly concentrated in Tokyo) stems from a copy of Western culture. If anything, the Japanese are known as the world's best copycats.

hi,what I would like to tell you is, ...nothing .
enjoy japan as much as you can,enjoy peace,work,foods and all.
these are only and only in japan ,you cannot get it anywhere,nowhere

I think so.

matt I totally agree. no one has fucking commented on how japan is the best copy katters. if im not mistaken, what the hell is KATAKANA for? It's for borrowed words, and even some borrowed words are SOOOO fucking common, they are written in HIRIGANA now! Toliet = toire, convenience store = combenieunsu sutoaa.. blah blah. i do agree that japan has totally hugged western culture and do not have the right to brag about pride, people, and DAMN sure don't have the right to brag about CULTURE. i'd like you to look up a modern japanese kana dictionary, there's atleast 4,000, everday, everyday, everday, borrowed words from english. get over yourself Shingeru.

anyone in this day in age that is still bragging about their people needs to just shut the fuck up and get on with it. it's not gonna work anymore. the white man runs this world for the most part, go brag to him, see what he says ;-)

i happened to stumble upon this thread by accident searching for racial issues online. even though this thread has been going on for awhile i just want to put my two cents in, i do think some japanese people are racists, in my opinion, the elder ones. most young people in japan are not racists because most of them do embrace the western cultures. and if they do still think that foreigners are "poisoning" the japanese culture, they are just lying to themselves because some of japan's culture descends from other asian cultures. some of their caligraphy was borrowed from the chinese...that's what i read somewhere in a text book in school. by the way, does anyone know how to say filipino, french, mexican, indian, and african in japanese? i'm curious to know how to say them...